&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;UWC HEARING - DAY 1 - MONDAY 5 AUGUST 1996



CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CT/00519

VICTIM:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;COLIN DE SOUZA (son)

NATURE OF VIOLENCE:&#9;&#9;DETENTION AND ASSAULT BY POLICE

TESTIMONY FROM:&#9;&#9;DOROTHY DE SOUZA (mother)

&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;COLIN DE SOUZA (son)





CHAIRPERSON: ... glad when we see families standing together as you are today. You have a painful story of detention of torture of harassment, of imprisonment and we want to hear your story today and I want to ask you first Ms De Souza are you going to give evidence as well, you are, thank you.

MS DE SOUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, will you start ...

MS DE SOUZA: It was said that Colin should start first.

CHAIRPERSON: Fine, that's great, thank you very much but both of you then will have to take the oath, so if you'll both please stand for the taking of the oath.

COLIN DE SOUZA&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states

DOROTHY DE SOUZA&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states

CHAIRPERSON: Without any further delay then Mr De Souza I am going to ask Dr Wendy Orr if she will take over from me and assist in the hearing of this evidence, thank you.

COLIN DE SOUZA: Okay.

DR ORR: Thank you chair, hello Colin, we've been speaking to

each other a lot over the last two days. And now you are going to speak to this audience and to the country.Colin you're a young man, but in your life, I think you've gone through experiences which people much-much older than you probably never ever dream of.At the age of 15 you were recruited by MK and became part of the Bonteheuwel Military Wing which Muhammad Ferhelst told us about.You were on the run, in hiding, your life was disrupted and then in 1987 you were arrested.Can you tell us what happened to you that - at that time in October 1987. --- Well I was arrested on the 2nd of October 1987 at 5:00 am the morning.During my arrest there were about 30 - 40 Security Branch policeman that took part in the whole arrest and we were took that morning to Brackenfell police station where we all were lined up, we were about 18 to 20 young comrades of Bonteheuwel.I was part of the comrades that was lined up there and first of all they took our names and I knew I was very wanted by the Security Police, and I gave the false name Mark Bresick with a false address also.During that whole day as I was standing in the line you know also waiting to be interrogated by the Security Police all my comrades went one by one in and I could have heard how they were screaming and shouting how they were being beaten up by Security Police you know.And - but four o'clock the afternoon, this one security bloke he called me and he said to -asked okay now what is your name, I said Mark Bresick, your address, I gave the false address again and he called me into a room and he called this one cop in with the name of Todd and this guy was like an artist you know, he 'drawed' sketches about people you know and descriptions and he said to me like open your bek maak oop jou bek and I had this(indistinct)teeth you know and they said now we know you are Porky. And immediately at that time they phoned Loop Street and they informed all their branches that they got the main - the main guy they - they were looking for and during that five minutes that whole police station was swarmed with security personnel that came in you know and it was almost like an interview you know.And these people they were laughing and making jokes, say how we caught up with you, we thought you were a big guy but now we see you are only a small child or a boy, but you have a lot to tell us and you know a lot.Then I was being introduced to Captain Van Brakel, he told me that for the past two years, he was chasing me and they were part of an investigating unit that was being empowered or gave - that get a mandate by Adriaan Vlok that time to catch us or kill us.That was what he told me, from there I was being - 'tooken' to Elsies River police station where I was being kept that weekend there.And the Monday morning of the next - following weekend Sergeant Pukker, Captain Van Brakel, Attie Strydom, and another boer with the name also Attie, they came there and they brought a tea table you know this tea trolley tables they brought one of that tables in with stacks of files on it, there was about 300 files and during that next two weeks, they would interrogate me about - over all that 300 files.They said some of the files was named Colin de Souza, some was named Porky, some was just named Bonteheuwel Military Wing.They would question me about attacks that 'happens' and policeman's houses, bombs that went up, about comrades, Ashley Kriel, Anton Fransch, Andrew November.After they were finished with that two weeks with me, that interrogation at Elsies River police station, they took me this one morning to a field in Bonteheuwel where I had to show out where this arms cache were as they would call it a DLB that time, dead letter box, we went at five o'clock at that morning on the 15th of October 1987 we went to this field opposite the Machete. The Security Police they were digging up that whole field, apparently they found nothing and there was this one boer all that I know about him, he said he was the wit wolf of the Eastern Cape.He said to me yes Porky, I will necklace you - I will necklace you just the way I necklaced all the other comrades in - mainly in the Eastern Cape.And you mustn't play jokes with us, this is the spade that I hit Ashley with and then they took me away you know.Took me to a Magistrate where they like forcibly made me to gave a false statement, a statement that I didn't even read, that I didn't even see.After that they took me to Victor 'Verster', when I 'camed' at Victor 'Verster' I made a complaint against one of the officers Constable Kahn, I told the ordinance there this hospital ordinance that this officer Khan he assaulted me on the morning of the arrest and they formally lodged a complaint against him.From - I was just about two weeks there at Victor 'Verster', I would say more like a holiday or a rest, then I was being fetched by Kahn and Strydom or other boers also and they took me back toKuilsrivier police station.The day when I 'camed' at Kuils River police station, there were like Military Intelligence people, State Security Branch, people of the Secret Service, all wanted to question me in connection with bombing attacks and pipeline structures, they want names, they want 

instruct - instructions how the underground operated to where underground,this underground were linked you know how deep I were in.They questioned me about Joburg and all these etcetera things you know.

&#9;Colin I am sorry to interrupt, did they assault you or torture you while they were questioning you? --- Yes - they were beating me at that stage.And at one incident they were throwing that was during the afternoon they throw in some teargas canisters in - inside the cell you know a wet cell you know, this wet with water and they closed the doors and all the windows were closed but at that time I was still cleaver of knowing the tricks and the tactics you know of laying down on the ground and that, the tear gas won't get me, so when they came in, they saw that I was still conscious, they were expecting somebody after a half an hour to be unconscious, so what they did is they undress me and they chained me up, you know my feet, my hands to my feet and they had a special chain you know, that were used with the prisoners that is on awaiting trial you know, that chains you know and they would chain me up by my feet and my hand and put me up against this metal gate you know, this metal and chained me up to that gate, then start beating me with the batons over my head, Van Brakel would pull my hair and you know and they was beating me till I was out.I don't know if it was the next day or if it was that night, but I regained consciousness while I was laying hanging on that door, metal door and when I was regaining conscious I thought to myself why - why am I seeing this people you know not the right side up, but you know the other way around you know I was - I don't know how to explain it now.But I was actually half way upside down you know and they came, Van Brakel came in and he grabbed me by my hair, because I had very long hair that time you know and he grabbed me and he say, hey Porky, you must now - you must now stop with your lying for the past three weeks now you being lying, you were be lying to us the whole time in Elsies River when we were questioning you and the interrogation, now your time is over, they start. They didn't want any questions, they just beat me for that whole night down they left me there without food, water for say about two days, two and a half days.Then maybe after the second day, I know it was the Wednesday around there, they untied me, they put me in the shower just let the water run over me and they themselves put the clothes on me.And the brought the normal SAP police in, to give me food, but at that time I wasn't hungry because I was beaten up, then they told me look here we going to put - took you on a holiday to Joburg, there is still some unsolved mysteries in Joburg that we have to find out about you mainly a military head quarters that was being blown up, a hand grenade attack at Wilgerspruit that you probably would know of.The Thursday morning around about two o'clock the morning they come and fetch me out of the cell - out of the cell, that was Captain Van Brakel and Adjudant Strydom.They took me by car up to Joburg, when I - the next day at - the Friday afternoon around about six o'clock I arrived at John Vorster Square together with Captain Van Brakel and Adjudant Strydom.They took me up to the third floor on John Vorster Square, I came into a security room that were full of TV's you know and actually they - and every cell there was a TV camera and they could have monitory you - monitored you from that TV room you know and just for a brief moment I saw on one of these TV cameras that there were my co-accused John de Vos he was laying there in one of these cells and they put me in the last cell on the third floor. And as the night passedone of these policeman, SAP policeman that had to check on us during the night, he came in there and he said oh! I see you from Cape Town, and he told me he is also from Cape Town and where he parents staying and they said, I see here is two people, it's you and John de Vos.And I said to him look here, during - are you going to be on the staff that is in the morning, he said yes, I asked him is it possible for you to take me out, when you take me out for shower to take John de Vos also out, he said no he would do it as a favor.The very next morning he took me and John de Vos out, the time when I get in contact with John de Vos in the shower, I saw that John de Vos's whole - one of - I think it was his right or left side, of his body was limped, you know and he was like shivering and his one side, almost like a person who had a stroke.And I asked him what were wrong, he told me no before they brought him to Cape Town, they also electric shocked him you know and he had severely body pains you know and he then he complained to see to doctor, and then they took him down to the doctor and the afternoon when they took me again out for showering, we - apparently we went for three or - three times a day for showering me and John de Vos he told me that the doctor only gave him Panado pills.He said nothing stronger than Panado's so they were keeping us a week for their investigation in Joburg, mainly investigating about Khotso House activities, how the World Counsel of Churches, the South African Counsel of Churches were assisting us with money during the time when we were in Joburg in 1987 also. After that week they took me and John de Vos like - they actually took us back to Cape Town and then Van Brakel he came the Thursday and he said ja Porky I have a surprise for you and I asked what surprise and he told me no John de Vos is here also.It was like this, they didn't want me of knowing that John de Vos was also that time there for their investigation, so I was laughing them out, so I told them - I told them that me and John de Vos was for the past week showering together so there was no secret in that, so they were very angry.So they took us down to Cape Town to Kuilsrivier police station, two days after that they take us to a Court in Goodwood, where I was released in my parents consent.I was released under house restrictions, I had to be like seven o'clock till seven - the night till seven, the next morning I had to be in my house, you know you mustn't be more than five people - persons in that house, otherwise I can be detained.I had to go and sign at the police stations at night also because they were afraid that I would leave the country.

&#9;Can - you were then under house arrest for a fairly long time and were then arrested for possession of explosives in June 1988. --- Correct yes.

&#9;Can you tell us what happened around that incident? --- I was arrested the night round about ten - ten o'clock - June 16 1988.Apparently the police were chasing a group of comrades that wanted to set up a barricade and then I was arrested and I was arrested at Ms Barnes house in Bonteheuwel and during the time of arrest I didn't want to be arrested so there were like a fight for more than a half an hour between me and the constable that wanted to arrest me in that house. Apparently he did get some assistance of other policeman that did come assist him.They beat me up, took me to the scene where they found like tires and petrol bombs, they handcuffed me to a electric pole - light pole where they beat me unconscious.Then after half an hour they 'throwed' me into this big 'ingomo' with all the tires, I was looking more than a tire when I was coming at Bishop Lavis police station.The night when I came there the first people to arrive at Bishop Lavis police station of the Security Police were Sergeant Pukkerr and Captain Du Plessis, Pukkerr would like question me, hey Porky were you involved when was it, I didn't answer him nothing I just kept quite because I knew him you know, he was like this very passive guy like asking passive, speaking very passively and sincerely to me and he said no man Porky give your - gee like your samewerking like they were speaking in Afrikaans.And then Du Plessis would just every time hit me with his fist and say jong go to hell with that, still giving you time to think over and plan, and he would hit me so badly you know I would just lay on the ground and then they putchair against the door you know, open the door and they put the chair in the door and they said to me look here we want you stand on top of this chair because we want to take your height and without I knowing that Captain Du Plessis was standing on top of a table or a chair at the back side of this open door and then he grabbed me around me neck and choked me with his arm you know.Choked me all - till I was like out you know and after that - ten - twenty minutes of beating up there, they left me, you know took me to a cell and throw me - threw me in the cell there. After a few days Strydom would come here and he would question me about shooting incidents that happened and the highways and they allege it was the Bonteheuwel Military Wing that did it.And I said no I don't know nothing about that I am more in my house than I were before I was on the run.And so I was sent to Goodwood Court, when I came in the Court there was still some other

co-accused that were also arrested after I was arrested, they all did get R100-00 of bail, R200-00 of bail but the Court denied me any bail.The I was remanded back to Durbanville police station.I was kept there for two weeks without nothing, without any questions that they would come and ask me, nothing, I was just kept there.I still remember on the end of the this two weeks Constable Kahn he would came and he would come and fetch this new raincoat my mother just bought me from Cape Union Mart, avocado green one, and he would fetch it and I would ask him why would you want this coat.He told me no apparently the policeman saw you were running with this coat, so I told him that policeman who was there the night when they arrested me, why didn't he gave that, that time in the evidence, why you come now, he said no don't worry.From there I was straight back to Goodwood Court where I was remanded back to Pollsmoor prison.The time when I was remanded to Pollsmoor I was being thrown amongst political prisoners or in a separate cell, I was being thrown amongst criminals and I was kept there for six weeks in detention in Pollsmoor.And I can still remember my lawyer was Christine Burger, and she did come and visit me just two weeks before my Court case had to 'came' up and she said to me Porky, Mr Moosa them all they did try to get a bail, they tried at the Appeal Court also, the Appeal Court denied any bail, the Supreme Court denied any bail, there is no bail for you, you - we just want you to accept if you come on the Court that there is no - not going to be a bail. Two weeks after that I went to Court and this certain day when I came on Court, Constable Kahn he came there down to me in the cells, he said to me kyk hier Porky we going to give you a bail, but just remember tonight you are a dead man.And immediately when my lawyer came she said oh! they very surprised, this is Ms Burger that the found that the State is going to give me a bail of R1,000-00 then immediately I told her look her this Security policeman he told me they going to give me a bail, but tonight I am going to be killed.So that day my bail was a R1,000-00 it was being paid.I went out, I went with my father to Woodstock where I washed and my brother-in-law Kevin was also with me and the night here around about six o'clock because I had to be seven o'clock in my house, six o'clock we returned to Bonteheuwel where I stayed at 21B Candlewood Street.At that - at that same time I was still busy eating my food and I heard this familiar knock on the door and I was standing inside the - inside the - nearby the toilet you know in the - near to the sitting room you know and I heard the comrades Jacques Adonis he was asking Ms De Souza, Mr De Souza is Porky here, my mother said no Porky isn't here he is somewhere else he is not sleeping at home.And they said, then they said okay, we did watch you the whole time, we knew Porky were here, Porky came with you and apparently at that time Jacques draw out a gun to force his way into the house like to shoot me and my father grabbed him and there was a whole twist outside and my brother-in-law he hit Jacques you know and the gun fall - fall over the balcony right down you know and they chased the group, it was a group of youths it was about sixteen of them you know. Some of them were with me in this - in this trials of the BMW and the chase went right around the street and my father and my brother-in-law they arrived.At that time I had a firearm but it was for my own purpose.I took out the firearm, I put it underneath my jersey, I went outside because I check now it's too dangerous to be inside the house.And I want to move now, out of the area.As we were still standing outside to move this group of comrades and there was some gangsters also with, they came shooting around the corner, before even they take the bend the shots was firing and they were shooting and throwing bricks and my mother and my father they ran into this, and with my baby brother ran into this people downstairs house, that there surname were Brooks, they ran into this house and these people locked the door, and I and my brother-in-law Kevin Arendse was still outside, locked outside.The people inside didn't want to open the door and here these people were preparing to shoot and there was like a big fight you know and one guy he was still trying to cork the gun but the gun jammed you know and at that time as I was shouting open the door, the people inside opened the door and as my brother-in-law Kevin Arendse and I ran into the house, and the door closed the shots just went down and the bullets ran through the doors and through the windows and all that.

&#9;Colin you said in your statement that you found out later that the police had actually deliberately misinformed the community so that they would come out to get you the way they did that night.--- Correct yes - yes.

&#9;So it was a campaign by the police to stir the community up against you. --- Correct because during my first arrest, police people like Sergeant Pukkerr who was in the Military Intelligence, he said to me that I don't have to worry if I don't want to give my collaboration with them.They have - their ears and eyes are like in Bonteheuwel day and night and they got top informers with inside the pipelines of - of the ANC of Umkontho we Sizwe.And I am already being branded as a informer, so I don't have to worry, so I expected that things to come.

&#9;Colin you then went into hiding again because obviously you were at risk both from the community and from the police. --- Correct.

&#9;Until in January 1989 you decided to leave the country. --- Correct yes.

&#9;Can you tell us what happened on that day. --- My father was - he was suppose to drive us from Cape - out of Cape Town as far as Joburg because he was quite familiar with the routes you know.And I was in the car and my girlfriend, later to be my wife, she was also in the back seat in the car and I was sitting in the front seat in the passenger side, my father was driving the car.As we approached the airport, I saw this Hi Ace van full of Security cops and I eventually knew that same time that the cops were on our trail.We went into the airport and we organized we - we get this car of Avis Car Hire service, a new City Golf and there were some Security guys with video cameras that rolled their video cameras on us you know and as we came out of the airport, this one commuter Hi Ace, they tried to you know to pull us down, to - like to put up a barricade in front of the road. But we drove past them, knowing that my father was a very good driver and he had a number of awards when he was working at Total of being a very good driver you know.And we drove past them and at that time Strydom and Attie and some other Security cops, they drove past us, next to us with a maroon Toyota Corolla and they were like waving with their guns to us, like pull down, pull down and I was just waving my hand to them like saying goodbye.And the shooting didn't start there and they were chasing us, right through Old Crossroads, and we - they chased us to the Old Crossroads, there were a whole convoy of Security cops, cars and vehicles, 4 x 4 vehicles and apparently that time there was MK people inside KTC that opened fire on them.And they lost us for a few moments, we drive through Mandalay and then they catch up against us, Constable Kahn drove right in front of us and as we passed through them into Mitchell's Plain, without knowing that they were having a helicopter monitoring us from the air you know.Then they were chasing us right down Bayden and Power Drive as you take the - to turn into Swartklip.As we took that road into Swartklip we were actually driving very fast you know, they couldn't catch up with their cars.I immediately see at the back of us there was like this maroon - metallic blue Alfa Romeo came right from the back very fast and this guy he was hanging out with a machine gun and he was shooting at - shooting at our wheels.And at that time they shot our wheels flat, both our back wheels were flat and they shot through the windows, the back windows were in, the front windows, all the windows of the car was in, the car started to burn, and at that time Van Brakel and his other Security cops had the time to come near us and they were shooting just - you know they were driving next to us you know and shooting with the 16 shooters you know, but most of the koels most of the bullets missed us by seconds. I can remember I was sitting low in my seat and the head cover of the seat you know it was full of - full of bullets you know because the sponge you know, it grabbed some of the bullets there you know and I kept my door the whole time open while they were shooting because I realized if they were catching me here with my father and my girlfriend, they would kill us.And they would - either they would put that - they would put a lot of firearms in that car and say to the news look here we did catch the terrorist, they had a very good history on me and I knew I had to get away to escape and I told my father look, drive me just to the near urban place where there is houses.And we drove as we took the road into Strandfontein, from Strandfontein Village -from Strandfontein Pavilion in - right to Strandfontein Village we hit a car because we didn't have any more balance, there was no brakes, there weren't a fifth gear, we only had four gears.We didn't have steering, we turned again right to come into Strandfontein Village.At that time the Security police they shot again our car with shotguns and heavy artillery.Our car went up the hill on the sand hill, it came down on two wheels you know, the car was - we were driving with two wheels.We went the first road to our left in - into Strandfontein Road - Strandfontein Village.The only way of getting brakes that my father had to drive up into a driveway and to crash inside that people's driveway and the idea was when he go into the driveway, and he like get a break you know with the gear or whatever, I had to jump out in that time and run. And I remember when I opened my door, I still shout to them jump, but their doors couldn't open because it was shot closed you know.The locks were all broken you know and I jumped over the wall, the time when I was jumping over the wall, one Security woman - police lady she jumped out with a 9mm shot machine gun and the bullets just went so over the - you know over the wall like dust, I just saw dust you know.And they were chasing after me in the hills there in Strandfontein but to advance I had combat boots on, now I didn't sink in the sand but they sank, because they had all tackies, they were like prepared to - prepared to catch me.But I was very fast on my feet and I know if I - of my past experience of running for them and of gorilla experience I knew if I am going run, deep into this bush, these people would catch up with me.So I decided I would use the half moon formation that gorilla's would normally use to advance when they camp out or if they know if the enemies is trailing them on the border line, they would move in a half moon and they would just encircle the enemy from the back and I used that advantage and run in a half moon position and just come out on the second road on the other side you know.And I ran into Strandfontein Village and hide myself underneath people's bushes till the night fall.And that whole Strandfontein was - it was cordoned down you know they had roadblocks, the - I know there were more than 2,000 police people, the dogs unit were there, there we helicopters throwing their lights in the bushes.And I stayed there underneath the bushes the whole night till some lady, there were some a Muslim lady I went to her, I tell her - I told her look here lady, I am a member of the ANC, I am a member of Umkontho we Sizwe and I put my whole trust in you, this boers they want to kill me. And she sent her daughter around because I told her look here, she must take this watch and put it in her hair and when they come there and - on the scene and they must just show it to my father and my girlfriend, maybe they would catch on that I am safe.When they came there they couldn't come near the scene it was like cordoned off you know, they came back this lady, but I put my whole trust in her you know and maybe that saved my life, if this lady were an informer that police would have 'catched' me just there you know without people knowing.And I told her I just want to come out of Mitchell's Plain, so she told me the best way to come out now is with some church people that is in the road, that is going to church the New Apostolic people because there is like roadblocks and all this.So she told this New Apostolic people that I am family of them and I got lost, that's why the only - I only know where they were staying so these people must only give me a lift as far as Mitchell's Plain Town Centre.I climbed in the back of the car and I grabbed of these Psalm books you know, where the people sing out the New Apostolic people, church people sing out and I was reading through it you know and making like I was bit of a religious.Now what they made is when they saw a suspicious guy the roadblock they would show with the torches and they stopped that car, now they see no this is church people and because I had this brother's jacket on you know a church jacket on.And I was sitting at the back of the car and the book was in my face and they said okay this car can go past let me stop the bus. And I drove out - drove out of Mitchell's Plain to the Town Centre.From there I moved with the train as far as Bonteheuwel that night, at Heideveld station the police was waiting, when I - when the train was approaching the station, I saw the whole police was standing there.I jumped out of - from the train as it was still driving you know, by the bridge nearby the police station.I ran to my brother in Bonteheuwel, I told him look here they caught up with us, so my brother organized a place where I could go into hiding for that few days.But as I was staying in that - in that place of hiding, at that certain priest house, he became also afraid of having me there because they were having a manhunt over the Western Cape over the TV, over the radio and all that, giving my 'prescription'.So he said he can't have me there long, so I went on my own initiative out on the road, that same afternoon I was being chased from - down - I tried to move to Camps Bay, from Camps Bay, Cape Town, and from Cape Town to Bonteheuwel as I came into my grandmother's house, the Murder and Robbery Unit police just came in and they put their guns next to me and they arrest me.

&#9;Colin after that arrest you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment and you went to Pollsmoor and were released under one of the indemnities in 1990 is that correct? --- Correct yes.

&#9;I know you've only told us a small part of what you experienced in those five years and I am sorry that there is not time for us to hear more.But it's very obvious that a large part of your life was spent being harassed, detained, tortured, intimidated, threatened, imprisoned, how has that affected your life? --- It did affect my life because a number of jobs that I went to go and work mainly I am trained in security, I know all security skills, when I went to that jobs people give me a firearm and all that, I found that I - I would get, immediately when I have a firearm in my hand, I can't perform my security duties, sometimes I am becoming to nervous or to tense. At one incident I was just shooting at a guy, shooting to kill, and I realized okay this is going to put me in prison, so I rather I am going to leave this job and I left that job.And I tried to went - to go to the Military also, when I was still in my training in Pretoria about two years ago on Wamanstal, I just felt sick and the only thing that the field hospital doctors were saying is a general body malaise.And after that I analyzed it through speaking to doctors and they told me that, that is the condition of the body that is over tired and the body can't stand the stress any more and I was sent to a specialist in that field you know that 'dealed' with tortured people and he said I was tortured so severely you know that the stress built up on my small brain you know because of keeping secrets and that stuff all in you know and it formed almost like a cancer in mybrain, that's why all my hair, I lost all my hair you know during that time when I was in prison for that two years you know.And so the 'recomendated' medical treatment for me and I am still under treatment psychologically and medication, still today.

&#9;Colin thank you very much and I am going to ask your mother just to speak to us for a while and then I am sure my colleagues would want to ask you some questions to.So can you just move the microphone across.

DOROTHY DE SOUZA:

DR ORR: Ms De Souza we've listened with horror I think to what Colin has told us. Can you perhaps tell us how - what was happening to him affected you and your family during those years. --- Certainly it has affected our family in many ways for instance I just recalled the time when he said he had to go - had to appear in Court at Goodwood, that was with the second trial.That evening we were preparing to go to bed early because of the next morning as we had to be there very early as his parents.And I remember while we were sleeping there was a knock on the door and it was two Security police and they demanded that my husband had to go with them and I refused to let my husband out of the room, I said no we should, you know as well that we should be tomorrow in Court very early to be with our son as he is appearing.They said no but your husband must go with because Colin is at Bellville police station and he wants to see you.And as you know we had no confidence in the police because of what we went through as a family.I refused and I asked them to give their names and they didn't want to identify themselves and I said I had no trust in them and I'll never allow my husband to come out of the room.And I was trying to be tough there and stood up with them and they left.And as they left I told my husband I don't think we should sleep here tonight here is something very funny going on, I just had this strange feeling that something they - I don't know what they were planning up their sleeve.And we - we had the car that time still we moved out of the house with the smallest boy was still three years old and the daughter was about ten, we moved out of the house with our kids and as we rode out there is a circle in our street in Candlewood Street, and when we got to the circle we met up with the Security police and that was an half an hour after they suppose to leave our house, but they were still there in the area. And I told them where can we go to because no-one is going to open their doors for us because people were sort of - sort of staying away from us and being very one sided because of the mess we as the family were in.And it's almost like we were the perpetrators and as we moved out of the house they had the audacity and followed us in the car at the back and they actually tried to shoot us off the road, me and my husband and the two kids.And they were chasing us through the roads down the freeway and I said to him we going to hospital and he said what do you mean we going to hospital, I said just go to hospital, the child is sick, I wanted him to get a grip of the story because they were listening in and we had no privacy.And they had this bugs everywhere and because they were pausing next to us in the next car.And as we drove they followed us to the hospital chasing us like they were chasing criminals.They had no - they didn't even think that we weren't involved, we were just the parents of Colin and I had the small baby there in the car and my daughter and they chased us through the streets as far as the hospital.And there we had to leave our car outside Red Cross Hospital and phone some friends and that was another priest he is not here in the country any more.He had to assist us to take us to some people's houses so we could sleep for the night in order to get to Court the next day so that we can be with our son.We slept there that night and the next morning we went to Court. We met the same police there, which made as if they didn't know us, and anything like that happened that same night.And it was a strain on the family to think that they harassing us in such a way they could of knocked us off the road or drastic accident could have happened and we couldn't - we should never have been there at Colin's side.And as Colin said the same night that he was - these comrades came to shoot him, I know I don't blame them today because I know it was the way the police worked to make us look as if were informers and that night they also treated us very badly because we couldn't turn to the police, but the neighbours in the street because of we knew it was comrades, and we didn't want to be drag them to Court as my son and them were involved.And so other people called the police and I was very hurt because of what the Captain said, Captain Van Brakel over the phone to this policeman, he said to him, I can't remember his name but I can picture him well.He said to him there wasn't any shooting, there was no shooting incident.And he said but the evidence is here, the exhibits are here and there was a shooting incident and the bullets are there and the neighbours have confirmed it.Yes and actually he said, don't take any notice, just go away and leave that people alone and it hurt me to think that this policeman stood there, he wanted to help me, but he couldn't because this Captain he was of Murder and Robbery, Captain van Brakel, he was one of the perpetrators as well, he said to him, he must leave us and we were destitute.We had to find our own way out of that mess, and I remember Jacques Adonis very well.I met him and I had, I felt guilty even though they were the people that came to my house and he came to me one day and he said Ms De Souza I've come to apologize because it wasn't my intention to hurt your family and I did forgive him and I am very glad I did, because it weren't long after that, I think two months after that, he was also killed. And thinking about this hearing Colin's story again, some incidences seems like it were funny, but to us as a family it really hurt us, there were times we didn't even feel like speaking to one another or eating because we were all very frail and thin, my husband even lost his job at the time because of going to Court in and out every day.No it weren't like a week or two weeks, it was more than a year that we had to go every day with our son to Court, and it is as if we were on trial.And the saddest thing was the day that he had to go to prison on top of it he was in maximum security with rapist, murders, you name it for two years he never came out.I even begged them to let him go out and work somewhere so that he can just do something with his hands, but they said no he is a political prisoner, he wasn't sent to Robben Island, he had to stay there in that prison, day in and day out without working or doing something with his hands.Sometimes there were times that they cut our visits and we couldn't see him, we don't know the reasons why.I think that was part of the way to torture the family and eventually Colin came out but when he came out of prison he weren't a boy any more, of course he was with evil people inside.And today we still trying to support Colin as a family which is very hard because we not medical doctors, he is not every day the same.Frustration builds up in him, he has got a little boy of four years old, and I am very sorry because I don't know how I am going to tell his child why his daddy isn't working and why his daddy's got this ways and all that. So it's really spoilt our whole family and another further generation to come, because Colin is also going to grow - his son is going to grow up and it's going to affect him, because he is not with his dad.So that's my story.

&#9;[indistinct] now the effect on one person doesn't stay there, but there is a ripple effect and it affects different people, different generations and I know it must be very painful for you, thank you for sharing with us. --- Yes.

&#9;I am now going to hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Dr Orr, do you have any questions.Mr Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.Colin [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Order, can I please ask people not to move around during the witnesses giving evidence, and if you must please do so quietly, it's not fair on the witness.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Potgieter.

COLIN DE SOUZA

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson, Colin you referred in your evidence to a policeman who referred to himself as the wit wolf of the Eastern Cape. --- Correct ja.&#9;

&#9;Let me just, I want to ask you something very specific about that, because it seems to affect the evidence that was given in an earlier case, that of Ashley Kriel.You say that there was reference to a spade and you were told that you would also be beaten like that.--- Ja.

&#9;Who actually said that? --- I don't know this policeman his name, but I know he was the one, himself, who called himself the wit wolf and Sergeant Pukker, they two were responsible, they were the two guys that took John de Vos up to Joburg, should it be - so it won't be difficult to locate to his name.And he weren't like a guy from the Western Cape that I knew because I knew like all the Security cops.He was like a new guy.

&#9;And what was he actually suggesting, was he suggesting that or implying that he had beaten Ashley Kriel with a spade. --- Ja, that is what he said to my because the morning when they were digging, they were finding - they found no firearms in that field, only scrap metal, doors of cars you know and then he said this guy eventually, this guy Porky lied to us because they took me out of the van and the throw a blanket over me and took me to where they dug this holes and then he start threatening me, he said you see this - this spade, this is how I - I myself hit Ashley with this spade, that is what he was implying.And I will hit you the same way, and after that he said, I will also necklace you how I - the way I necklaced other guys in the Eastern Cape.

&#9;Okay, you also said that you laid a charge against Mr Kahn one of the policeman. --- Correct yes.

&#9;What happened to that charge? --- After I was being released the charge had to be followed up and Security police everyday they use to come and harass us, every morning at home, me and my family and eventually one morning me and my mother went with them they took us to I think that was Sergeant Pukker and I - and some other cop, but they took us to Roy Beamish here on Modderdam Road where they had this juristical office where all the big bosses of the Security police were and they took us into a office of Colonel Niehaus and I could - I could have seen all this other policeman whether they were Captains or Colonels, they were all having a respect for this guy, and this guy he said to me they even made tea like we are friends you know they made tea and offered tea and he said no I must eat biscuits sommer also. And he took out my file and - a file of mine out of his volt, and he said we now want you - you must withdraw this case because here I got the evidence that shows you had to be killed, you are lucky that the wrong police arrested you on the 2nd of October, because did the right police arrested you, the right guys arrest you, the orders was already been 'putten' out that you must be killed.And he showed to me a paper that was actually a death certificate that was stamped and was being signed by the State Security branch, the head of the State Security police branch.I read the name with the name of Viljoen on the signature.He showed it to my mother we all were shocked, he said here I am having all the other comrades names, he named the names Ashley Kriel, Anton Fransch, Andrew November and Colin de Souza.And I was like shocked - shocked for what this guy showed me there at that office.So during that - you know the harassing us and I said okay I would withdraw the cases you know just to get them from my back, I withdraw the case from Constable Kahn.

&#9;Okay, I assume you not happy with that. --- No.

&#9;With that result. --- No.

&#9;You did that under duress. --- Correct yes.

&#9;You also said that when you were in Johannesburg and you were being questioned.--- Correct.

&#9;Interrogated you were amongst other things asked about Khotso House.

--- Correct yes.

&#9;What was that about? --- It was mainly what was the - who was supplying us with money, while - because they had like information that the Counsel of Churches, South African Counsel of Churches were the people that put us in hiding and in sanctuary and they were funding us with money.And they wanted to know who in Khotso House - there was a man with the name of Ike Macetsli, they named him, they - they named the head - the head person in charge of Khotso House, Frank Chikane, they said Reverent Frank Chikane at any times also offered you money, were Khotso House involved in sending people out into exile through the church, were they using the church and particular what formations of the church were involved, particular in Joburg.And to priest, priest names and all that.

&#9;Thank you, then just finally, briefly in your statement you made a statement to the effect that they hurt your father and your girlfriend. --- Ja.

&#9;What - what do you mean by that, just briefly can you explain that. --- My father was beaten up very severely, the time - say two weeks after I were in - after I was arrested and I was inside I found my father the one day, they took me to Mannenberg police station the morning and I see here my father is also beaten up, his gums inside and eyes and maybe my mother would know a bit more, because I was also beaten up you know.And my girlfriend she was pregnant at that time and what they actually did is they sent her to this Dr Siroky at Bellville South and he actually gave her this abortion pills in, they forced it into her and she knew because they forced in and after having her two days in detention, she would start bleeding and everything would come down and they sent her home. 

&#9;Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions, Mr De Souza can you just tell me again the name of the Doctor? --- His name is Dr Siroky.

&#9;And where is he practicing? --- He were practicing in Bellville South as a District Surgeon for the State a few years ago, about four - five years ago, he was still practicing there.

&#9;Thank you very much.Ms De Souza I want to thank you for your testimony, I know that you found that hard and difficult, I think we can quess of some of the burden that you have carried and Dr Orr has already underlined the unbelievable suffering that was brought upon not only on individuals but on families.And that, that suffering continues until today.It's very hard, but it's very heartening for us to hear the way you and your husband stood by your son, now that didn't happen all the time and there must of been times when you were critical and worried and full of strain and stress and yet you've come through it and you continue to take a stand with him as you are today publicly.And we want to thank you very much indeed for that.You could have spent many hours telling us I know, but what you have said gives us a window into what has been happening in your life and the life of your family.Colin we don't know what to say to you, you have experienced so much in a very short life.So much of what is bad, what is negative, what is cruel, and you together with so many others, young people, you were never young, you just had no opportunity and we really find it difficult to know how to respond to the cruelty that is possible within human kind. We are glad to hear that you are finding help in the Trauma Centre, we hope you will continue to do that because you bear upon your body and your soul, scars which won't be very easy to be taken away, it's going to take a very long time.We have taken note of what you have told us, we will follow up whatever we can do, and we hope that by coming here today, by talking with Dr Orr over those last couple of days, by telling us your story publicly, that this will not only be a testimony to what our past has been like, but also part of healing by exposure, by sharing that something of the bitterness and the awful, awful experience that you've had will in some way assist you to bear that burden in the future.We want to thank you both and we salute you, thank you. --- Thank you.



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